carter - case tuning help

adas

Well-Known Member
Aloha. I am tuning my cases this weekend for my Aprilia LC Disc brake Minarelli Horizontal engine. I have done a lot of searching here to find what is the best configuration. I know about matching cylinder to cases, etc. but what about filling in areas? The bearing lubricating holes are on the reed cage side. Is it best to fill in the transfer port areas (removing the right angle) like the example below?

http://forum.scooterforum.net/forum/showthread.php?t=32970&page=19

Or how about the golf ball treatment as shown at the bottom of this page

http://forum.scooterforum.net/forum/showthread.php?t=32970&page=20




thanks, frank
 
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Danish?

Some people fill up the lubrication holes @ the membrane and drill new once behind the transfers.

I think it doesn't really matter where the holes are.

That golfbal effect is something what we discussed aboutfor quite some time.

A golfbal has little small holes on the surface. Tests have shown that those holes reduce drag and the bal stays longer in the air.

Some people say it works in engine like this too. But gas is not Air nor pure gas. It's a mixture of both.
That brings us to the people who say that the oil in the mixture will create a layer on the surface and makes it smoother.

If you want my vison on Block/Case Tuning:

Keep it simple.

Match cylinder ports, remove "dead (flowing) spots" and try to aim as much mixture towards the transfers.
 
Big B NRG said:
Danish?

Match cylinder ports, remove "dead (flowing) spots" and try to aim as much mixture towards the transfers.

Aloha, so I am starting to tune starting at the reeds.
I am thinking of using a much larger reed block and making the angle more towards under the piston by putting a "V" wedge under the reed-block mounting bolts.

This looks good but makes clearance between the crank and rear reeds only about 5mm.

I am wondering if the spinning crankshaft will help "pull" mixture towards under piston or will the spinning cranshaft create a boundary around itself hurting the flow to under the piston?
 
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adas said:
Aloha, so I am starting to tune starting at the reeds.
I am thinking of using a much larger reed block and making the angle more towards under the piston by putting a "V" wedge under the reed-block mounting bolts.

This looks good but makes clearance between the crank and rear reeds only about 5mm.

I am wondering if the spinning crankshaft will help "pull" mixture towards under piston or will the spinning cranshaft create a boundary around itself hurting the flow to under the piston?


Depends on how the readcage is angled. I prefere to angle it over the the crankshaft "walls".

With tuning of engine block, you have to think in (for exp.) in 13k RPM. Not step by step.

5 mm issn't bad, I had once my membrane about 1-2 mm from the crank. It more about positioning the parts in that way, so the flow won't be disturbed and the gasmixture can flow "natural" without any points where it looses speed or smacks dead.
 
Big B NRG said:
Depends on how the readcage is angled. I prefere to angle it over the the crankshaft "walls".

With tuning of engine block, you have to think in (for exp.) in 13k RPM. Not step by step.

5 mm issn't bad, I had once my membrane about 1-2 mm from the crank. It more about positioning the parts in that way, so the flow won't be disturbed and the gasmixture can flow "natural" without any points where it looses speed or smacks dead.

Aloha, how about turning the reedcage 90 degrees so the reeds point back to front instead of right to left?

frank
 
well it depends on your school of thought are you a believer that there is a constant flow down there or a flow in steps?
My view is that the mixture is drawn in and will be stored in and around the crankcase and also in the cylinder transfers and will continue to be drawn in until the piston reaches TDC
Then there is a small time when there is no flow and then the piston begins to move downwards now some of the mixture will be thrown back out the reeds but the majority that was resting in and around the cylinder transfers will then just be pushed into the cylinder and the crankcase will be evacuated of most of the gas.
So i really don't think that you need some special shape inside the crankcase just once there is no restriction to the incoming gas from the reeds.
The gas isn't flowing directly from the reeds to the cylinder it waits there for one stroke, just make sure you make the space quite large between where the cylinder skirt sits down and the crankcase. This is important when the piston is pushing the gas in the crankcase into cylinder transfers
 
Aloha, thanks for the responses. Lets keep it going!! Many of us are on the same wavelength or thought pattern....

"Well it depends on your school of thought are you a believer that there is a constant flow down there or a flow in steps?"

Well there is a constant flow as someone mentioned at 13000 rpm things are moving fast, but I think the areas need to be addressed in steps, from air filter to expansion chamber.......to see what the weak or constrictions-turbulent areas are.

"My view is that the mixture is drawn in and will be stored in and around the crankcase and also in the cylinder transfers and will continue to be drawn in until the piston reaches TDC"

Yes my view too, but now with full circle crank there is less bottom crankcase volume and more direct from reeds-then under piston-then up the transfers flow. But with full circle crank there may be less "vortex" around the crank.
And also with full circle crank there is less crankcase volume, too but most important is the volume sucked in being displaced by the underside of the piston.

"Then there is a small time when there is no flow and then the piston begins to move downwards"

I understand that if you use too large of a carb, you will decrease the mixture velocity too much and loose the effect that you have with the velocity still pulling in mixture after the piston starts to come down.

"now some of the mixture will be thrown back out the reeds but the majority that was resting in and around the cylinder transfers will then just be pushed into the cylinder and the crankcase will be evacuated of most of the gas."

So now we need to close the reeds fast so there is minimal loss back through carb and max pressure up the transfers. The flow has to turn 360 degress from under the piston to up the transfers.

"So i really don't think that you need some special shape inside the crankcase just once there is no restriction to the incoming gas from the reeds.
The gas isn't flowing directly from the reeds to the cylinder it waits there for one stroke, just make sure you make the space quite large between where the cylinder skirt sits down and the crankcase. This is important when the piston is pushing the gas in the crankcase into cylinder transfers"


But how about the V shape of cylinder skirts here that the French tuners use? I feel, like many before have said, it is very important NOT to have any restrictions or sharp bends, but DO NOT polish as you need to create a boundary layer between the metal and the gases to make the flow faster. (but not like a golf ball). Also try minimize the turbulent areas.

Thoughts?

Frank
 
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adas said:
But how about the V shape of cylinder skirts here that the French tuners use? I feel, like many before have said, it is very important NOT to have any restrictions or sharp bends, but DO NOT polish as you need to create a boundary layer between the metal and the gases to make the flow faster. (but not like a golf ball). Also try minimize the turbulent areas.

Thoughts?

Frank


Big B NRG said:
Keep it simple.

Match cylinder ports, remove "dead (flowing) spots" and try to aim as much mixture towards the transfers.


So where are finished:P
 
adas said:
Aloha, I am looking for more discussions on this English speaking thread, such as we see on the Dutch threads. How about this "stock cylinder and ports used on this Malossi 70cc ditech.... the surface is deliberatly rough on both ports and head. Is this a golf ball effect or just sloppy casting? frank

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94067


That;s just sloppy casting. Because it's a mass production cylinder, it's made within tolerances of the orginal blueprint.

Because the cylinder and heads are casted, you get that surface. Take a look at a motorcasing of a car. No smooth surfaces there.

That Malossi 70 Ditech cylinder didn't look that bad for a mass product. I have seen worse.

Also I think Malossi wants to make profit and tries to save on costs. One way of doing that is using easier/less precieze casting processes, that are cheaper.
 
cantdrive55 said:
Danish... lol had a brain fart and meant DUTCH. gotta not stay up so late and post things...
Well thank you.

A few people i know have filled up the holes for the bearing and borred some new ones towards the cylinder. They say that they can't fell any effect, nor see it on the dyno.

The crank helps hurl the gas mixture towards towards the tranfers its not only the vacum that does that.

I myself would point the reedvalve straight towards the crank. Since this would help fill the crank house faster than the other angle.
 
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